John Reimann | And we’re talking with Vitaly Duden who is in western Ukraine. How’re things there in where you’re located Vitaly?

Vitaly Dudin | Because of the military state in the Ukraine, all the territory is covered by the [unclear] posts. So if you move on the road, your car can be stopped. And the people from territorial defense will check your documents…. There are no safe place in Ukraine because Russians using missiles which have a big distance… [including in] western part of Ukraine, [including close] to Poland. So if even here people can’t sleep at night because the raid the sirens, and of course their hearts are full of anxiety but people are ready to help. [They are still] trying to live their lives as before… working [going] into shops, etc.

John Reimann | ..

Vitaly Dudin | I am doing researchers in the sphere of labor rights. Also I help people to protect their rights on the workplace. I’m not working as a trade union lawyer. But I help every trade union activist We are in need. And I can say that a lot of people lose their work places, A million people or few millions even can’t work as before the war, because their enterprises were destroyed as well as their we’re moving on the west, they of Ukraine or in Europe… our state is not ready to help people properly. [Unintelligible] parliamentarizing of relations in the time of state of war, and the it can bring in the serious limitation of labor rights, For example, the right for the salary for the [work place] for the limitation of work week would not be guaranteed. And I think it is a consequence of neoliberal domination in our parliament.

Vitaly Dudin | We have no leftist parties in Parliament. We have no representatives of trade unions. Of course, we have some politicians, which claiming themselves as defenders of employees, but they have no influence. And the if government asks for some compromises, in the time of war, we have a fear that those compromises would harm the workers because they have no voice. The compromise in today’s situation, it’s like rich people are making decisions. And the poor people should agree. I don’t think that it is equality compromise and the stable relations. So we think that our government makes a lot to defend people from the Russian aggressions. And the are organizing armies they are organizing territorial defense… They’re asking foreign countries for the military support including planes, anti aircraft, guns, of course, it’s good. But when we talk about the social and economic decisions, I think that some decisions are bad. Some of them already implemented, but some of them should pass the parliament…. People should be protected. We should seek money and resources in the pockets of the richest people but not the poorest.

John Reimann | So, you mentioned that there’s no left party or working class party in parliament. It are any such parties, at least in the process of development? Or were they before the invasion? And if so, what’s happening with them? Now that there’s a war going on?

Vitaly Dudin | …. I’m the head of political organization social movement, which recognizes itself as socialist and the Democratic urbanization. And we have a plan to become the Labour Party. But it’s not easy, because we are on the way from transforming from the youth leftist organization, to political party, and the we need a lot of money, we should collect 10,000 signatures for founding the political party…. If Ukraine will be peaceful country, it would be easier for us to return to the question of forming of a political party… But of course, it’s very complicated questions. We face the very hard question of how we will survive those hard conditions. For example, one of our activist left blocked Mariupol only yesterday. He spent about two weeks without internet without mobile phone without gas, water and so on….

John Reimann | There’s been some call for the IMF to forgive all the debt of Ukraine. Here in the West, there’s been a lot of press coverage of the oligarchs, luxury yachts and luxury jets being confiscated. But there’s several problems. One is, in the main is just their jets and yachts, which are just a very small proportion of the wealth that they have. In the United States, the great bulk of it is in like bank accounts, stock market, and real estate. And, number two, those assets are just being seized, but they’re not being sold. So, ultimately, they may actually be returned to the oligarchs themselves, or in the past, what’s happened with similar seizures, is the money has been turned over to the government of the country from which they come, which in this case, would be to the Putin government. Number three is we have a massive enabling of shell companies here. So nobody can actually find the majority of the wealth, because it’s through the shell companies. So if the assets were actually seized and sold, how would that wealth actually get to the Ukrainian people?

Vitaly Dudin | Tax havens, and the offshores is one of the our main purposes for the foundation of our organization, in 2015. And in the time of war those demands are even more relevant. Because we know that even making a sanctions against Russian oligarchs, as they will not achieve their aims if they hide their money, in British Virgin Islands or in other parts of the world. And, of course, it would be hard to fight against Ukrainian oligarchs if they hide the wealth in the so called the offshore jurisdictions, so Ukraine cannot protect itself without transforming the global system. We need fight against global capitalism with its offshore support of or offshore basis. But of course, it’s very difficult because our neoliberals is they are aiming on the small steps that cannot destroy the whole capitalist system. Also, we know that some politicians from the G 7 governments, they’re also against radical steps against offshores because they’re directly involved in such schemes and relations. So Ukraine cannot protect itself without international support of world economic relations in the without fighting inequality in the global world.

Vitaly Dudin | So I want to add that Ukraine has no money even for those sufficient and essential spheres like health care… Also, because of the budget deficit a lot of employers just forced nurses to work part time in order not to pay the whole salary. So if we want to live… in the prosperous and stable Ukraine, we should fight against the oligarchs, not only the Russians, but also a gainst our native Ukrainian or oligarchs, we should the fight against the such criminal things like off shoring. And we should demand the cancellation of Ukrainian external dept.

John Reimann | What a lot of people are not aware of is that the United States is the single largest recipient of the offshoring of wealth through money laundering and the shell companies. Incidentally, Trump himself was a beneficiary of this because much of his money in recent decades comes from money laundering of the wealth of the Russian oligarchs. And I’m quite sure that there would be some Ukrainian oligarchs involved in that also. So this issue directly involves the United States; it’s not just the British Virgin Islands or a place like that…. The real seizure of even the Russian oligarchs’ wealth isn’t really happening, aside from just the few jets and yachts. But even if it were, it seems to me that maybe we should we here in the United States should raise the question of also seizing the wealth of the Ukrainian oligarchs. With all of that wealth going, in some way to the Ukrainian working class.

Vitaly Dudin | I think that the redistribution of wealth of Ukrainian oligarchs is a question of the justice, of equality. And without solving this problem, there will be no progress in Ukraine…. We should the raise the question of returning the wealth to Ukrainian people. Our oligarchs, they’re parasites. They’re paying the smallest salaries in Europe. They’re exploiting our natural resources. We should stand for the radical social transformation to build the prosperity of Ukraine, using confiscated oligarchs’ money. But we have seen no such demands from our government. Of course, we critically support our government in the question of defending our people against Russian aggressions, but their views are neoliberal. I think that they are very reluctant to start a battle against oligarchy system in Ukraine. In 2021, Ukrainian Parliament had adopted so called law against oligarchs, but it had no real impact. So we have good declarations, but we have no consequent action.

John Reimann | So would you agree then, that if the wealth is actually seized that for right now, while the invasion is going on, that that those assets should be used for military purposes to help Ukraine fight against against the invasion. But then, once the invasion is defeated, then it would seem to me that the working class in Ukraine would have to set up its own channels for that wealth to go to them to make sure that it’s actually used to benefit the working class and not go back into the pockets of the oligarchs themselves.

Vitaly Dudin | I think that the pressure on our biggest capitalist could provide more social equality in Ukraine, it is the main aim. Also, I seen that those money could be spent as well, on the military purposes and on the humanitarian aids, we can discuss the proportion, how many money should be spent on particular needs, of course, but today, Ukrainian people needs defense in all spheres, and we should fight for the transparency and the fight against the corruption. We should know how and where our public budget is spent. I want to say that we are working on this issue from the Euromaidan revolution from the 2014. Our comrade, Zahara Popovich, who is an economist, introduced the system of so called open accounts in Ukraine.

John Reimann | So my last question is, I think one of the most important things that we could do is start to build direct links between workers and workers, organizations, and socialists, here in the United States, and in Ukraine, and also in Russia. Do you have any ideas as far as how we can at least start to do that?

Vitaly Dudin | I think that is the main thing, it is spreading the truth against the war, you should spread the truth about war in Ukraine. We understand that Putin’s propaganda uses different myths about Ukraine, claiming that this country is ruled by [unclear]. And it is a militaristic state. But, of course, it’s blaming the victim. Our state is, I think, more democratic than Russian state. We have freedom of assembly, we have freedom of speech, we have left and the right organization. Of course, we have a lot of work to do. But we have a chance to develop our country. The second, you can help our people to satisfy their humanitarian needs, by medicine, by food by sending money. And this should you should show the solidarity in the question of building of Ukrainians future people of Ukraine, should they understand that as they receive enough support and those problems, and we are not alone. And they we should have a real chance to fight for the better Ukraine. We should show the perspective, the future. I [am] sure that this future it is democratic socialism. I think that we should return the influence of socialist ideas in Ukraine. And of course, it’s impossible to gain legitimization of socialist and leftist views from the east, from the Russia. I assume that Western lefts can make a lot of socialist ideas more influential in Ukraine. [That] will should show that socialism is not the past, but it is the future.

John Reimann
Vitaly Dudin

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