Palestinian residents, joined by Israelis and internationals, hold a weekly protest in Sheikh Jarrah, Jerusalem, March 24, 2023. (Heather Sharona Weiss/Activestills)

Awni Al-Mashni and I have known each other for more than a decade. We are the same age, and live only an hour’s drive away from one another — him in Bethlehem, me in Tel Aviv. But our personal history is entirely different: I served in the Israeli army, while Awni served time in Israeli prisons for his activity in Fatah. Still, upon being introduced by a Palestinian mutual friend, we immediately found that we shared common values and, more importantly, a common vision.

Based on those values and vision, in 2012 we co-founded an organization that we initially called “Two States One Homeland,” now known as “A Land for All,” which suggests an outline for a confederal solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Since then, we have met hundreds of times, traveled together throughout Israel and the West Bank, and spoken to thousands of Israelis and Palestinians. We talk on the phone — in Arabic, as Awni doesn’t speak Hebrew or English — at least two or three times a week, sometimes more. We have become not only political partners, but friends.

Over these long years, we have had to overcome no shortage of severe crises in Israeli-Palestinian relations: the 2014 Gaza war, the 2015 “Knife Intifada,” the 2018 Great March of Return, the 2021 “Unity Intifada,” and many others. But no crisis has come close to resembling October 7 and Israel’s ensuing onslaught on Gaza. The shock of that day and the deep fear about the future of this land have accompanied us ever since.

To mark the one-year anniversary of the war, Awni and I recorded a conversation. Even before we began speaking, we knew there would be a limit to how the conversation would progress: Awni, sensitive as he is, cannot comprehend the depth of the emotional shock I felt at the atrocities Hamas inflicted on October 7; and I, sensitive as I am, cannot comprehend the depth of his emotional shock at the deliberate mass killing of his people in Gaza.

Moreover, this was not a conversation between equals. I am on the side of the occupier, Awni is on the side of the occupied. While I do not deny the responsibility of Hamas and other Palestinian groups for the crimes they have committed, I am deeply convinced that the foundation of all violence between Israelis and Palestinians lies in what my state and people have done, and continue to do everyday. Until we, as Israelis, correct this injustice, neither we nor the Palestinians will be able to live here in peace.

The following conversation has been edited for length and clarity.

Palestinians stand on top of and beside an Israeli tank inside the border fence with Israel in the city of Khan Younis, southern Gaza Strip, October 7, 2023. (Yousef Mohammed/Flash90)

Meron: I want to remind you of the conversation we had a year ago, on October 7. One of us, I don’t remember who, said that the attacks were unexpected and yet entirely predictable. In my view, it was expected that the siege on Gaza would one day explode, and that the entire status quo would collapse. What I could not have predicted was the brutality of Hamas’ actions that day — the killing of civilians in their homes, the massacre at the Nova festival — as well as the failure of the Israeli army to protect civilians. What do you recall of your feelings on that day?

Awni: It is hard for me to think about my feelings on that day after everything that has happened since. The fact is that as long as there is occupation, as long as Palestinian people are attacked and imprisoned, the underlying causes of October 7 still exist. I don’t know what will happen, but I know that the Palestinian people will not accept the situation continuing as it is forever. On October 7, it was Hamas. In the future, it could be other, more radical organizations. Will they come from the West Bank? From Jordan? I don’t know, but they will come.

Meron: I didn’t ask what you’re thinking now, I asked how you felt on October 7. What was the biggest surprise for you on that day?

Awni: The biggest surprise was Hamas’ ability to even do such a thing, and the weakness of the Israeli army. That day, I realized that Hamas had killed a lot of civilians. I am against killing civilians, whoever and wherever they may be. I am against killing civilians at a festival, against killing women and children, Israelis, Palestinians, foreigners. I have expressed these sentiments clearly, I have written articles about it and I continue to hold these views. Israel’s killing of 40,000 Palestinians in Gaza did not change these feelings; it is unacceptable to kill nearly 1,000 Israeli civilians, just as it is unacceptable for Israel to commit mass destruction in Gaza.

Meron: At that moment, it was clear to us that after what happened on October 7, the Israeli response would be severe and violent. Did you expect what came next to happen?

Awni: Honestly, I did not. I expected there to be killings, bombings, an invasion of Gaza. But on such a scale? I wasn’t expecting it. And the biggest surprise for me wasn’t the army’s response, but the extent of the Israeli public’s support for the killing and starvation.

Devastation is seen in the area of Al-Rimal at the heart of Gaza City after Israeli bombing, October 23, 2023. (Mohammed Zaanoun/Activestills)

I thought that the Israeli army would commit war crimes, but that there was an Israeli society with humane and moral values that would not accept this. I remember that half a million Israelis in Tel Aviv protested against the Sabra and Shatila massacre [in 1982] and forced [Defense Minister Ariel] Sharon [who was held responsible for authorizing the massacre] to set up a commission of inquiry. I thought that half a million Israelis would come out against this killing in Gaza. The fact that Israeli society has become more extreme than the army — even criticizing it for not killing enough — was a surprise to me.

How do you view Israeli society today, where journalists in TV studios hand out sweets and chocolates and pop champagne in celebration of killing people?

Meron: I also did not expect Israel to reach this level of violence and barbarism. It pains me that people I see on the street, in cafes, in hospitals, may have committed or supported these crimes. I hear what people are saying and I am ashamed.

We have been working together for peace, equality, and mutual acceptance between Jews and Palestinians for over 12 years. But now, I ask myself whether Israeli society will ever accept that there is another people in this land, and that they deserve to have rights. I ask myself whether our efforts throughout all these years had any impact, and I have no answer.

Israelis don’t view what happened on October 7 the way you do. They only saw the incomprehensible barbarism of Hamas. Many Israelis have relatives who were killed, and I understand the desire for revenge. We are human beings. But we have reached the point where there is no limit to what Israel will do.

Awni: Perhaps one can understand, for human reasons, the fact that what happened on October 7 arouses feelings of revenge. The question is, what will arise from what is happening in Gaza? What will happen to the Palestinian generation that is being shaped by it? How will Palestinian children grow up? Will they be able to see an Israeli as a partner? I don’t have an answer to these questions.

Meron: What do you say to people who ask you about it? After all, people know that you are part of an organization that includes Israelis and Palestinians.

Awni: People ask me, “How can we live with these people who go to demonstrations calling for more Palestinians to be killed, or who block the trucks bringing aid into Gaza?” Can I tell them, “They’re just angry about October 7?” What we’re seeing is more than just a reaction to October 7: it’s a political plan to expel and destroy.

A man hands out sweets to celebrate the killing of Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar in the Gaza Strip, at the Mahane Yehuda Market in Jerusalem, October 18, 2024. (Yonatan Sindel/Flash90)

Meron: We held many meetings together with Israelis. If we were to hold such a meeting now, what would you say to someone who asked you how Israelis can live with the Palestinians after what we saw on October 7 — and the fact that all opinion polls show a majority of Palestinians in both the West Bank and Gaza supports what happened on October 7?

Awni: That’s a logical and fair question. But Israelis have a short memory. Three-quarters of the Palestinians were in favor of Oslo and peace with the Israelis. Palestinians in Jericho went out and laid olive branches in front of Israeli tanks. But after 30 years, the Palestinians have not received their rights. You ask me why Palestinian society supports the resistance? Because when Palestinians turn to peace, they still do not receive their rights.

The Palestinians agreed to two states within the 1967 borders, a demilitarized Palestine, and international supervision. But Netanyahu hasn’t engaged in negotiations with the Palestinians for more than a decade. If Palestinians are not granted a state, and they are not allowed to live a normal life without facing the violence of soldiers and armed settlers and the expropriation of their land, how can they be expected not to support Hamas?

Meron: I recently listened to a discussion you participated in with Dr. Basem Naim, a member of the Hamas leadership. You asked him why Hamas decided on the October 7 operation on its own, and why it did not prepare and protect the people of Gaza. Looking back, do you think that what Hamas did was a mistake?

Awni: Maybe the action was a mistake, and maybe it shouldn’t have been done that way. It should have been forbidden to kill Israeli civilians. But it was impossible for the situation in Gaza to continue indefinitely. It was impossible for Gaza to remain under siege for another 20 or 30 years, for [Israeli National Security Minister Itamar] Ben Gvir to do what he has been doing in the prisons for another 10 or 20 years, for the settlements in the West Bank to continue expanding as they do today. Maybe October 7 itself was a mistake, but you cannot take away the Palestinian people’s land little by little, kill their sons, demolish their homes, and expect them to do nothing.

I want to ask you a question: if it weren’t for October 7, would the Palestinians have a state? Would they have their rights? Would they be treated better? You told me that October 7 made Israelis angry — angry enough to do irrational things. But might what has happened to the Palestinians from 1967 to today also make the Palestinians angry and irrational?

What happened on October 7, and what has happened since — neither negates the fact that there are two peoples on this land, and that both peoples cannot continue on this path of ongoing violence forever.

Israeli forces in Hebron while Jews visit the old city during the Jewish holiday of Sukkot, October 22, 2024. (Wisam Hashlamoun/Flash90)

Meron: Do you believe that? Despite everything that has happened?

Awni: I believe it, yes. What happened in Gaza makes a person angry, but there is a reality on the ground where there are seven million Israelis and seven million Palestinians in this land. The war will not change this, even if Iran or Syria enter the conflict, or if Israel occupies Baghdad.

I believe that we must find a way for these two peoples to live together, but not when one people rules over, oppresses, and conquers the other. I think Israeli society is sick and in need of healing — and not just because Israel’s delusions endanger Palestinians, but also themselves.

Meron: Why?

Awni: Because today, the entire Middle East is convinced that Israel is a danger to the region, and that it is impossible to live alongside it. This is true not only for the Palestinians, but for the Egyptians, Jordanians, Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, Iranians, and Kuwaitis. In Jordan, they think Israel is capable of expelling millions of Palestinians across the border from the West Bank, which poses a threat to the Hashemite Kingdom. Expelling 2 million Gazans to Egypt is likewise seen as a threat to Egypt. When the entire region senses that Israel is a danger, I think Israelis should think twice.

Meron: We’ve been working together for more than a decade. How do you view the foundations for joint Israeli-Palestinian struggle going forward? Do we stand a chance?

Awni: I think the war can be transformed into opportunity: it can lead to different thinking. The Palestinian people were not eliminated and the Israelis were not eliminated, so we have to look for another choice. Palestinians are experiencing an existential crisis of food, water, prisons, and detention centers. Israelis are experiencing the crisis of tomorrow, fearing for their future.

We can overcome these crises and achieve real peace, but it requires a change in thinking and politics — a change required more of Israelis than of Palestinians. The Israelis hold the keys, they control the whole country, they oppress the Palestinian people.

Meron: And what is required of Israeli-Palestinian movements?

Protesters march to mark 56 years of the 1967 occupation, Tel Aviv, June 3, 2023. (Oren Ziv)

Awni: The Palestinian cannot listen to the Israeli today. If an Israeli speaks to Palestinian society, he will not be heard. The Israeli has to work within Israel. The Palestinian must work within Palestinian society, but there is not much to say to the Palestinians.

I have no answers, Meron. I have lost my answers vis-à-vis the Palestinians. I expect every Israeli to give me answers so that I can pass them to the Palestinian people.

Meron: I also have no answers. I think Israel has lost its senses; it doesn’t think about the day after. After the army’s recent attack on Tulkarem, a Palestinian friend wrote to me that we, the Jewish activists, must organize and speak out against these crimes. It is now or never. This is not the time for solutions, she wrote to me, this is the time to join the struggle of your Palestinian brothers.

Whether or not the International Court of Justice rules that Israel’s war in Gaza constitutes genocide, it is clear that Israel is willing to erase Palestinian existence in the Strip, and perhaps also in the West Bank. So this is not a time for conversations about solutions — this is a time for joint struggle.

Awni: Israeli Jews today are afraid to speak out because their society is right wing, racist, and hateful. Should an Israeli then come and say they identify with me? This doesn’t help me.

The defeat of the ideological right in Israel today is not only a Palestinian interest, it is also in the interest of Israeli Jews who think that Israel should continue to exist. Because in the end, this [right-wing] policy can only lead to one place: that Israel ceases to exist. It will not bring about reconciliation or coexistence.

Meron: Why did you say that an Israeli identifying with you is not enough?

Awni: You are part of a society that commits war crimes. You are not required to say that you identify with me. You must change the political situation to prevent Israel from committing war crimes. This is your job, your responsibility: to build a society on the basis of humanity, respect for others, and equal rights. Explain to me, from a Jewish point of view, the logic that excuses what Israel is doing in Lebanon, Gaza, and the West Bank.

Several hundred Jewish and Palestinian activists protest against Israel’s assault on Gaza, Haifa, January 20, 2024. (Oren Ziv)

Meron: That’s a question I ask myself. I agree that there is a danger that what Israel is doing will destroy its existence. It is in my Jewish interest to fight this thinking. But at the same time, I know that most Israeli Jews support an attack on Tulkarem, on schools in Gaza, in Lebanon. They don’t hear another voice.

And when my Palestinian friend says that the only thing Jewish activists can do is join the Palestinian struggle, what’s your view on this approach?

Awni: There is no need to join the Palestinians, thank you very much. There are enough activists on the Palestinian side. What is needed is for the Israeli Jew to fulfill his role in his society, regardless of the Palestinians. We need you to act in Tel Aviv, Haifa, Ashdod, with Jewish parties, with Jewish institutions, with Jewish students, and tell them that what is happening is wrong, and that it is destroying your existence, your future.

Meron: I think one of the things that Israeli Jews most want to hear from the Palestinians is that we are welcome in this land, that the Palestinians accept Jewish presence here. But most Palestinians see Israelis as a product of British colonialism, not part of the land. Maybe it is not the right moment [to make such demands], but to me it is important.

Awni: I also see the Israelis as having come here through British colonialism, there is no denying that. But they have become a people here. Americans are colonists who came from Europe, but in the end they created a people.

Are you telling me that I should recognize a historical right to Jews in Palestine from 3,000 years ago? I don’t know what happened 3,000 years ago, I’m not an archaeologist, nor can an archaeologist say who has the right [to the land today]. I deal with political reality. I don’t know who came before whom. But at the end of the day, I recognize that there are two peoples in this land.

When we spoke about one homeland, we wanted to get out of the trap of the historical question. You are not required to give up your historical narrative, nor am I required to give up mine, and we recognize that this is a homeland for two peoples. “Two States One Homeland” solves this equation. I see Jaffa as part of my homeland, but in practice it is part of another state. You will see Hebron however you want, but it is part of the Palestinian state.

Meron: Despite everything that has happened, do you believe that there is a possibility of reconciliation between Jews and Palestinians?

Awni: Why shouldn’t I believe it? Who perpetrated the Holocaust? The Germans. So how does Israel have good relations with Germany? Who colonized Algeria to exploit it? The French. So how come there are good relations between French citizens and Algerian citizens? Wars are hard and they generate hatred. If you want to overcome hatred, you need to produce equal interests. People live the past out of pain, but they think more about the future.

Meron: Earlier this month I was in Italy, where I met several Palestinians. One of them left Gaza during the war and another left Gaza five years ago, but her entire family is still there. We could easily agree that there should be equality for everyone living between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea, in a situation where no people enjoys superiority over the other, and I, as a Jew, have no additional rights over the Palestinians. We are close. The languages are similar.

Awni: I believe in this discourse, but there is a political class — especially in Israel, and perhaps also Hamas — that needs to think differently. Perhaps the events of the past year themselves will help to change their thinking.

Meron: In what way?

Awni: When Israel’s expansionist project reaches a dead end, when the Israelis reach the conclusion that it cannot be implemented violently, and that the Palestinians — despite everything that has happened to them— are present and have rights, this will lead us down another path. It will take time. I don’t know how long.

The balance of power is important, but it is also changing. Within a short period of time, the Soviet Union went from being a superpower to no longer existing. The world is changing. Israel is a strong country, but that may change. If the Israelis rely only on the current balance of power, they may achieve short-term victories, but in the end, it will be over.

Meron Rapoport

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