Robin: First tell us a little about yourself. 

Oleksandr: I began with the Communist Youth. But the CP environment was not very leftist. Somewhat nostalgic for the good old days of the Soviet Union seen through the prism of the past. At the same time, they were connected to the oligarchs who dominated the Ukrainian economy. Then in my university I was connected to the Anarcho-Syndicalists. When Putin’ s first war against the Ukraine started in 2014, my hometown Donetsk was invaded and occupied. So I left as I did not want to live under Russian occupiers. I took on jobs as a migrant worker. After living abroad in various countries I returned to Ukraine in 2020. It was then that I joined Sotsialnyi Rukh. 

Robin: Please say briefly what the politics of Sotsialnyi Rukh are like. 

Oleksandr: Sotsialnyi Rukh is a socialist organisation committed to internationalism, socialist feminism, anti-capitalism and anti-imperialism. Since 2022, we have been carrying out a difficult campaign. 

We have tried to convince the international left that in the case of the war between Russia and Ukraine, we have a powerful imperialist force and a much weaker opponent which has a long history of being oppressed by Great Russian chauvinism. At the same time within Ukraine we have fought for the rights of workers and for all democratic organisations. 

Robin: Three years of war have been completed. Please tell us about the situation and the attitude of the people to the war. 

Oleksandr : Of course, many people are disappointed. Nobody had expected a long war. Putin had even refused to call it a war. Biden had offered Zelensky a flight out, assuming governmental collapse. But that did not happen. 

But this has been a terrible war. Severe damages have occurred to the economy. There are regular breakdowns of basic things like energy supply and water. People spend enormous amounts of time on survival so activism gets far less time. 

Robin: A large part of the left in India seems to feel that this is an inter- imperialist war, a proxy war. They do not see the right of self determination for the Ukrainian people as paramount, and when we bring it up, they respond by talking about the rights of the Russian minorities. 

Oleksandr : That brings up a number of issues at one go. So let me respond one point at a time. 

I have heard people say that our slogan in both Russia and Ukraine should be, “the main enemy is at home”. I must tell you, this is a total misunderstanding of the slogan. This is not a war between two imperialist powers, or even two reasonably equivalent powers. Ukraine gave up one of the world’s largest nuclear arsenals in exchange for a guarantee by Russia, USA and others to honour and protect the territorial integrity of Ukraine. Putin has broken that commitment before international law not once but twice. 

Ukraine is a distinct nation. Great Russian chauvinism has always denied that---under the Tsars, under Stalin. At the start of the current invasion Putin was absolutely clear on that. He blamed Lenin and the principle of the right of oppressed nations to self-determination for the very existence of Ukraine. 

One more dimension in the case of those who hesitate to support Ukraine is, they bring up the character of Zelensky and his regime. When you express solidarity with Palestine do you insist that before you do so the governing authority in Palestine must be of a political odour of your liking. Then why a different attitude to Ukraine and the Ukrainian people? 

You must understand that Zelensky was elected by an overwhelming majority. Outside, he is being projected as a clown or a comedian. But that is not his image for the Ukrainians. As I said, right at the start, he refused to flee. No one expected the war to last so long. His rating actually went up as Ukraine resisted. As the country’s elected leader he said, in effect, I am here. I am not fleeing. This gave a spirit to the people. 

Moreover, you can see that he is resisting the US imperialist demands for the materials deal. It is not even a deal. Trump is not offering a guarantee for the security of Ukraine in exchange for the mineral wealth. He demands it for past help given by Biden with no guarantee for future safety. And he does it like a bully of a locality strutting on the world stage. We are not admirers of Zelensky. But we have to say that under terrible provocation he kept his cool and fought for the honour and dignity of his country. 

How, after the latest developments, do sane people claim this to be a proxy war, an inter-imperialist war? We are living in a world with several powerful imperialist states. Wars of national liberation, wars of national self-determination, cannot be seen as some chemically pure wars. To fight an imperialist aggressor, you need weapons. Your seller may be another imperialist. They will have their own agenda and will not be your unconditional supporter. But unless socialist and working class movements and organisations are strong enough to produce weapons, not just hand-guns but major weapons, you cannot walk away from them. 

As for the Russian question, people need to know more history of our region. If you are talking about Russian speakers, we have two kinds. There are the ethnic Russians, and there are the Ukrainians who speak Russian. I know. I am one such. 

The Crimea had a heavy concentration of Russians because Stalin threw out the Tartars who had lived there for a long time. The so-called Donbas area is mixed. It grew up with Stalin’s forced industrialisation and there were people from twenty-thirty nations living and working there. Russian was the Lingua Franca. There is a Russian minority problem in countries of the former USSR like there is a problem of Hindi speaking minority in a few provinces like yours in India. 

Robin: We are told that Zelensky is a dictator and has suppressed the Ukrainian left. How correct is that? 

Oleksandr : Not quite correct. I told you a part of the Ukrainian left was close to the oligarchs. Some had strongly supported Yanukovych. Under Russian pressure he scrapped an economic agreement with the EU, which was a major issue for the Euromaidan uprising. He fled to Russia. The CP was banned. But because Ukraine is trying to cooperate with the EU they were allowed to appeal before the European Court and to contest under another name. Leftists who are not pro-Russian have not suffered that degree. However, we have fought against use of wartime powers against trade unions and the left. Because we now have martial law, trade unions find it difficult to strike. Also, male leaders can be conscripted. So one good thing is, a lot of women are being brought into union leadership positions. So, yes there are difficulties before the working class and there is a need to distinguish between supporting Ukraine’s right to national self-determination and support for the Zelensky regime politically. The problem is that as a considerable part of the left had been pro-Russian, when the invasion happened, right-wing elements volunteered for the front and gained. 

War has also hit the left---conscription, battlefront injuries, other issues. But do you think Ukraine, or large parts coming under Russian control, will help the Ukrainian left? Does Putin assist the Russian left? Or does he repress it worse than anything Zelensky has done? We can gain our position by combining class independence with anti-Putin, anti imperialist struggles.

Oleksandr Kyselov Interviewed by Robin Singh

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